there is no substitute for Cubic Inches. Adamantinomatous craniopharyngioma cyst fluid can trigger Fired expert m14. We had a good chuckle out of that one. Good article and very good to great comments. It definitely doesnt mean the ability to kill the target. finds relevant news, identifies important training information, Your story could have just as easily gone the same way but with a Glock 21 (similar to Timothy Gramins experience). Space radiation is made up of protons and all the elements on the periodic table. Some basic physics explains why the choice of weapon, or more precisely, the choice of bullet, enabled the suspect, James Hodgkinson, who was killed by law enforcement officers, to wreak so much havoc. There were no exit wounds. I would go with the 38 Super + P. Now you have something to rely on. Ballistic gel is a joke and not a valid substitute for actual flesh and bone. knows the sound of a 9m they may say o well Ill chance it but a 40 cal. As stated before, this article isnt intended to solve the stopping power debate, but only to discuss the issues it involves. What do you think of the Shield or do you know anything about it? In a statement, the FBI said he used a modified an SKS , the predecessor to the AK-47 which shoots the same bullets. It's the most comprehensive and trusted online destination for law enforcement agencies and police departments worldwide. If you find yourself in a legitimate self-defense scenario, you will likely not have the opportunity nor the wherewithal to take a careful and well-aimed shot at your assailant's head. Because of the relatively slim chance of obtaining more than a single torso hit, the ammunition used must maximize the likelihood of immediate incapacitation. Back then we all agreed the larger rounds had better stopping power. WebThe Smith & Wesson Model 26 is a target style revolver chambered in .45 ACP. hand guns to suit little feminine hands who shoots the Bad Guys with far less recoil and stopping power. If you need to kill someone with a single shot, a rifle is what you need, not a handgun.. In fact you are 1000 rounds short. Anyone using the term bullets to discuss weapon capacity knows little about firearms and has no business writing policy.on them. I am older now, living in the city. So it should not come as a surprise that while the DoD's call for submissions for the new military Modular Handgun System XM17 contract doesn't specify a particular caliber or size, they will most likely settle on a new 9mm sidearm. The biggest determining factors were and have always been budget and of course, what the inept FBI is carrying. One last thing, I love the MC but for a military branch that has prided itself on marksmanship, they went along all too easily to 5.56/.223 and away from a real rifle (M-14). There are two effects of electromagnetic waves on human body. The fifteen round magazine contributes to the spray and pray thinking while the 1911 makes one concentrate on placing the shot. There were 5 gunshots to his chest. In other words, negative acceleration and a non-linear path are both occurring. The louder the pop the more credence is added to his choice to continue in his efforts his engagement with you. Also we are talking pistols. Patrick states that since vital organs are located deep within the body, it should be obvious that to ignore penetration and permanent cavity is to ignore the only proven means of damaging or disrupting vital organs. Remember it is massive blood loss that causes circulatory collapse. I have a medical issue that makes it easier for me to carry a double action in a very small package. When all else fails, when the rounds fail to stop the bad guy, then you need time on your side. 0.38" Special P, 158 gr non-expanding bullet will, unless it strikes a bone, pass straight through a human body. Tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms: There are two places that we know will incapacitate a man every time they are hit: the brain and the upper spinal column. The flesh can tear and cells can burst as the tissue erupts outward and then slams back. There is no substitute for experience. What do you Think of the S&W Shield? There are a number of reasons for a failure to incapacitate, including a lack of awareness of the wound, intense personal fortitude, extreme emotions or physiological effects both natural (adrenaline) or chemically-induced (drugs such as PCP, heroin and cocaine). I carry a S&W 9SDVE which I find can hold a good tight group. Open the tools menu in your browser. The paramedics said he probably would not live. But its a good idea to carry a backup gun, and 2 spare mags that use the same ammo. damage We carried 19 rounds of 9mm in combat. Because capacity equals TIME. Lee reloading gear. The .45 is a bit harder to conceal so people may freak out. I imagine humans are the same. 45 ACP Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for 2.1 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Arming Yourself: A Woman's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Protecting Your Family: A Parent's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Arming the Elderly: A Self-Defense Guide for Senior Citizens, Holsters for Self Defense: A Guide to Carrying Concealed, Arming Toddlers and The "Kinder-Guardians" Program: A Shamefully Bad Idea, Self Defense for LGBT: Self-Protection and Concealed Carry (CCW) for the LGBT Community, Arming the Disabled: A Self-Defense and Concealed Carry Guide for People With Disabilities. Everyone should buy a magnum-powered handgun in .357 or larger caliber and feel completely secure that he or she has the best stopping power. The difference can be seen with pistol rounds, as well. I sure do love 45acp though. If I put p++ in my 9 mm, its going to hurt like hell! The past 45 years never needed more than one shot. That has been the best comment so far. I have never shot a people. Just my thoughts and observations over the years. It goes in a like a nail.. Leave it to a bunch of idiot Marines to bring a pistol to a rifle fight. .22lr is an assassins round yet we all have fun plinking around with it. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not exit from a human body. I dont have the time to read it. That is those of us that has and carries guns. I think the pain element is still to much with paint balls for Obamas new policy I think dart guns with the rubber suction cups would be more his speed. In his 1989 treatise, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, Supervisory Special Agent Urey Patrick explained that the goal of an officer in a life-threatening shooting incident is to incapacitate the adversary as quickly as possible. SS and Homeland couldnt be to aly wrong!!! The worse thing in a gunfight is running out of ammo, lol If you shoot well it shouldnt make a difference, especially with todays ammo types. LE, south LA and Watts for 8 1/2 out of 15 years. It normally doesnt do that with hollowpoints, either. But a .45/70 at 1597 fps equals a .270 Win at 3200 fps ballistically on impact and follow through. Do Not Sell My Personal Information. And Im not always concerned with concealing. It enters the human body at energies approaching the speed of light and 45 Acp Damage Human Body If that were true, we would only have one size Shoe, Clothing Etc. The 45 ACP is my choice of a Heavy Hitter. You have renewed my faith in man. While there are uninformed opinions regarding stopping power, thankfully, there is also plenty of credible research. 7.62 leads the damage potential, followed by 5.56, followed by 45 and finally 9 mm. Patricks treatise outlines the following factors to consider regarding handgun bullets: Accordingly, the best handgun rounds will reliably cause a permanent cavity that will penetrate the soft tissue of an adversary between 12 and 18 inches. Hence poor shot placement, causing a miss or worse the poor animal suffering a slow painful unnecessary death. There are four major handgun founding factors. Case in point, a 1600lb bull mooseshot 3 times at 50 yards with a .338 magnum. Another deputy acquired a .45 and was having trouble being able to qualify with it. Some of the best handgun calibers for self defense are: To adequately understand the efficiency of incapacitating a target, we must have some basic understanding of the mechanics of wounding how damage to the human body works. 10mm. How many decades are we going to have this debate? Bob. The .9mm, took3 rounds to the chest and he never even paused. 9mm, I carry 147 grain Hp. Rookie year. Take it this way, someone shoots at you, you at them. When dealing with a highly motivated target, milliseconds matter. So they downvote actual biological functions here. I like it better than the small pistols and can conceal the 1911 easily. Center Mass/head shots are guaranteed kills. My opinion, for whatever its worth, is that were all overthinking this. But honestly, if you cannnot conceal a 1911 you cant conceal a G19.. Thats a bs statement, I know this because I carry concealed and my 1911 conceals just as well as a single stack 9mm compact. Where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound. But thats me. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 450 ft/s will burst a human eye. Still, no one should select a caliber based on the assumption that it will expand sufficiently to incapacitate an assailant. All this newer powder and more efficient bullets. This was not a good CC carry eather so for a while I did not carry CC. So, have you experienced shooting someone at close range with each caliber to determine the stopping power of each round? I read a study from an Army medic regarding one shot kills from a handgun. All animals died pretty much on location. Now its true that most of those victims wounds ultimately proved fatal; but its also true that they were far from incapacitated and either did or could have returned fire if they were also armed. Of course, smoothly drawing a handgun leads directly to another subject: which holster is best for those concerned with personal protection? The victim died immediately. We cannot recreate these or even reliably use the data. More rounds the better. A 45acp will deliver more damage to a human body that a 9mm. Im sure, given the choice, MARSOC troops would take a 15 round FNX45 over a Glock 15. Which Id be inclined to think a .45 would transfer more force more immediately taking the spirit out of most. The role of the gun industry in Americas gun violence epidemic. For the better part of a decade, working on the streets in 2 of the 4 most dangerous neighborhoods in these United States, (per semi-annual FBI Violent Crime statistics) shot distance and circumstance can NOT be accurately anticipated. Any of these rounds will do the job in the hands of a skilled shooter, period. Without fragmentation, temporary cavity wounds can be relatively minor. Practice, practice, practice. When it does occur, it is not a significant factor in wounding. Supposedly he is firearms and forensic expert with the Rhode Island State Crime Laboratory. Phantom So its all about what fits they individual and what they are comfortable and accurate with. This is pretty interesting BTW https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/. ACP cystic fluid caused growth retardation and an increased obesity index in mice, affected the expression of the Npy, Fgfr2, Rnpc3, Sst, and Pcsk1n genes that regulate growth and energy metabolism in hypothalamic neurons, and enhanced the cellular interaction of AgrpMc3r. Mamma and papa went getting along I guess. And I suspect it could very well be the Sig P320 as it is the epitome of modular.. The P227 Tacops holds 14 rounds in the mag and 1 in the chamber so 15 rounds is similar to the Glock. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. Hollow point bullets are superior to round-nosed ones. So banter on gentlemen. He came up in this world initially through his 8-year experience with a state-level law enforcement agency in Colorado. You are up close and personal with this guy. Your body will make the shot while your mind hesitates every time! Whether it hits the shoulder, the leg, arm, hip, whatever. What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. Real world combatants or keyboard commandos. I seen it first hand as well. Heating effects, occurring mostly around 2.45 GHz (which is the frequency used in microwave ovens) Ionizing effects, which can damage human body and cells; Here is a picture of how the radiowaves penetrate the human body according to the frequency. Thats funny. 10 Best ways to Make Money on Social Media and not waste time. by Kyle Mizokami Key Point: These are the bullets that will do the A .223 is just 55 grains. I have shot many different calibers. Of course providing as to the type of ammo. Also SOCOM has been using hollowpoint ammunition for years, but primarily against unsanctioned terrorist personnel. In winter I concealed carry a 1911. The Human Torso Test. The saying The Quick And The Dead was true. Copyright 2023 A. H. Hassall, The microscopic anatomy of the human body Wellcome L0024128.jpg 1,100 1,796; 960 KB. And while you might think that lethality by caliber is the main factor you should be looking for, the simple fact is that while a 22 rimfire is deadly, it is far from the best round for incapacitating an assailant in the here and now. To each his own. So you better have the biggest heaviest bullet going down range that you can possibly get. Look at the Walter Scott shooting. Its hesitation that makes people miss. For me the argument is how the pistol or revolver feels in my hand and how accurately can shoot it. Im sorry but a 225 grain bullet going 850 1200+ fps vs a 127 grain bullet going 975 1150 fps is going to be more effective and deadly. THAT shot better make a change. For almost 17 years that I carred a badge I carried a S&W 357 on a K frame. He was a deputy sheriff. But you have no proof that the .45 ACP will work that much better. At 10-20 yards I want a .45. Thats the secret. There are many fine little Girls Guns in 380 cal. I have got to wonder about this Neil Clapperton quoted above. People have died from hitting their head just right after slipping at their desk,kitchen. Browse our site today and place your order with confidence. More damage with one shot. With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes.. The bullet had disintegrated his spleen and torn his aorta. Explore. A .223 is just 55 grains. Shot placement was nearly identical. Heck a well placed .22 in the head can get the job done. If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition, it will cause greater trauma.. Watch the .22 and the .223 tested on blocks of ballistics gelatin, a material that mimics human tissue. My feeling is that the gun for you will be as individual as you are. The HRP is concerned with long-term health consequences of radiation exposure such as cancer, as well as adverse effects to the central nervous and cardiovascular systems. There are an almost equal number of shootings with 9mm that are ended with one or two shots as well. And since the FBI was the agency who failed in the first place well, why follow thier blind lead? Over time, conditions that damage the liver can lead to scarring (cirrhosis), which can lead to liver failure, a life-threatening condition. But in the Kaos of combat (especially at dark:30) your intended target isnt usually going to present itself and just stand there for your perfect shot placement. If we had had 45acp in the hands of the FBI in most every one of these complete inept foul ups they would likely have never happened and the debate would only be Glock or 1911 45 acp. Which might had something to do with losing the Revolutionary War, where Americans used guerilla tactics. Love reading your stuff. WebSearch: 45 Acp Damage Human Body. Overall I enjoyed reading your piece and found it noteworthy that Smith&Wesson ( one of the great disappointments of this and the last century) was eliminated from the contract competition. Your story reinforced thisas civilian in counters are closer that usual police work. I have used both calibers personally in combat, and I can say unequivocally and without any doubt whatsoever that the .45 cal DEFINITELY has much more knockdown power than the 9mm which due to its higher velocity tends to punch right through the assailant leaving him wounded but still on his feet and able to return fire. I have most of the makers revolver & simi-auto, in most of the major calibers. Guy KEPT COMING and managed to shoot back twice. JavaScript seems to be disabled in your browser. Another, was a 300lb black bear. Whats more, a temporary cavity measures volume that has been stretched, not volume that has been destroyed. I Have hair and an angular face. WebIn a perforating wound, the bullet creates an exit wound as it escapes the body. Very accurate and deadly, The bullet travels at 1450 FPS. The rest of the argument as far as damage goes, should be common sense. If you wound one man, you take three men out of battle, one injured & two to care for him. Creatine 158 gr 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullet will penetrate outside skin of car door and sometimes just penetrate the inside skin. At 8yoa my dad taught me to shoot with a 1911. This article will define what the question which handgun round has the best stopping power? means, and offer unbiased information that will help the readers to make up their own minds on the subject. Yes, yeas I have. Basically what I'm saying is the .50 is almost the same size as .45 and the tissue damage is near the same. I have several 1911 pistols. Pain is generally physiologically irrelevant, but where present often just makes motivated targets angry and thus, more motivated. As blood moves through the body, it picks up extra fluid, chemicals and waste. Robert MacNemerra knew nothing about firearms but his decision that the AR-15s chrome lined bore and chamber was a needless waste of money brought a whole lot of grief to a whole lot of people. They said, ja, the 9mm kills people just fine, as long as you use it the way anyone with any sense uses a pistol caliber. First off when you call a magazine a CLIP, everything you say is null and void as far as Im concerned. Massive blood loss is much more likely with deep penetration and damage to vital organs. Physiology, Acid Base Balance Or 45 cal quickly changes the perspective f the individual. Oh, and Sgt. Depends. If you throw it at someone, not so much. If its fired from a Thompson Submachine gun, its almost guaranteed to be lethal. Gunshot Wounds .45 ACP FMJ doesnt normally make bad people flop to the ground instantaneously unless it hits the brain or spinewhich is probably what happened, given his skills. I much prefer the 45 acp and have used it on game from deer to moose and it always was my go to gun. Police, f.b.i., train. I can say with great certainty that many animals dont just simply fall over and die. Among other things, this makes it ineffective against body armor. The comparisons that I have seen conducted under those conditions seem to be pretty equal. The 1986 FBI Miami shootout between eight FBI agents and two serial bank robbers was the deadliest and most violent shootout in FBI history. For this reason, jacketed hollow point (JHP) ammo is the only realistic choice for those who carry a handgun for self-defense. For two decades, MARSOC operators have been allowed to carry custom-built Colt 1911s chambered in .45ACP. There will always by that guy who can take several shots before dropping, and there will always be that perfect head shot. You get Into a real shooting scenario. Youll shoot how you train is one, but many dont train. Another may be more easily rattled, where a head shot is possible but still iffy. very obvious. If one keeps a weapon in the home for self defense, we believe that it is a duty to know the weapon inside and out and to train with it regularly. Never held a weapon till boot camp. With the spine on the backside with the arteries running along it, coupled with the obesity of the fast food hoodlum, that penetration was considered more key. I daily now carry a 9 mm. It is often said in sports talk, that the game is a game of inches. This is also true in life and death gun battles like the FBI Miami shootout. Semiautomatic rifles dont shoot the largest bullets on the market. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. The FBI Training Division reported in May 2014 that officers, on average, strike an adversary with only 20 percent to 30 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident. Patrick points out that there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support voluntary, life-threatening actions against an officer for 10 to 15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed. NATO settled for the 9mm as a general service handgun cartridge after the war in part based on the testimony of a whole bunch of old SS guys whod served on the Russian Front. Ive never liked Glock its sure a well made gun but definitely NOT the best gun Ive shot. Hollow points are designed to rapidly expand after hitting a target, causing as much damage as possible and reducing the chance of overpenetration. Anything else is a simple failure to prepare. View our Terms of Service Its too small. Once you run out of rounds, youre done. Tearing and rupturing is common in tissue surrounding the wound channel. This is important because of permanent cavitation: The greater amount of tissue that is destroyed, the greater chance of incapacitation, all other factors being equal. Like cars and motorcycles its all a matter of preference for each individual.God Bless America and May God keep us safe so we dont ever have to be put in a situation to have to find out. You may be knocked down and have to squeeze off a once and last shot to save you life. I am a classic ). A sniper friend said once if bigger is better throw bricks he was using a 243 cal not a 300 win mag nor a Lupa 338. Americans have this impression, I think, that comes from watching too many old movies, that a bullet fired from a handgun is supposed to flip the bad guys ten feet into the air, if not disintegrate them altogether and leave a smoking pair of haji sandals on the pavement where they were. In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62 can weigh in at 125 grains. F = MA is absolutely true as it applies to ballistics. Awareness of the injury (which often registers before pain), fear of death or greater injury, preconceived notions of what people do when theyre shot, as well as a simple desire to give up can all play a factor in psychologically incapacitating an attacker. While typical SKS rifles do not qualify as assault weapons because they have a fixed magazine and stock and lack a pistol grip, Hodgkinsons gun would have met the criteria. Ballistics engineers try to balance speed, mass, and surface area to make the most effective round possible. The Department of Defense has recently been taking a hard look at the sidearms and sidearm calibers issued to today's military personnel on the front lines. Just as in the case of the military, my agencies biggest determining factors for this decision were not anything to do with the performance of the rounds or the effectiveness for the safety of the officer. There are tons of manuals and a ton of information so that you can write an informed post. I assume that it is cost that is the main concern. Circulatory collapse results from massive bleeding caused by bullet wounds primarily to the heart, other major organs or major blood vessels of the torso. Where aim for the middle of the whole body. Both really do not muster up for the Marines. I see no problem with any branch of the U.S. military using the 9mm, but they need to go back and annul the Hague Commission signing. I enjoyed reading all of this info but didnt once read the real reason the .45 was originally better at stopping than the .36 cal. Your shot placement will be perfect. Thanks. Please dont send me any hate mail. I believe politics carries the most weight.The military sidearm is the least political concern as far as what other weapons are available for them.The beretta was a good example.Far from the best weapon compared to sig & glock,it got us a deal to put missles in Italy . But with the way things are going today I decided it was time, so I just bought S&W M&P 9 Shield. The .45, for instance, is slightly slower than the 9mm, but features a more massive projectile, with 250 grains of mass compared to the 9mms typical 115 grains. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. According to mamas statement, Papa got crazy and chased her into the bath room. There ya go compromise just carry both. I dont plan on using a handgun for long distance shooting. What we do know, however, is that when most people are shot, they fall down. I carry a para-ordinance warthog in 45 when its cold.I shoot the gun enought to know I can hit what Im aiming at. The programs, policies, and people driving positive change in Americas gun violence problem. Stay safe everyone, JP, first of all, Im really sorry you had to go through that. Anyway, stay tuned we shall wait and see. damage This myth continues not because of fact, rather because of unsubstantiated statements like this. Here is the money point: assume you will only get ONE shot at the perp. Its certain to elicit a wide variety of opinions and almost as likely to stir up an argument. That will put anything down.But if it comes time to kill a man should there be any fun in it. But I think your decision is not based on any real scientific backing and is more rooted in confirmation bias than anything. Handgun and Patrol Rifle Instructor, a graduate of Trident Concepts Concealed Carry Instructor course, and a Modern Samurai Project Endorsed Instructor. Most of these wanna be gangsters are cowards and are used to shooting at people who dont have guns to shoot back. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. WebThe human body can survive relatively high blast overpressure without experiencing barotrauma. His analysis is paramount to someone telling me the 7mm Rem Mag will outperform the 8mm Rem Mag. But it is no longer valid against todays terrorists, and the mindset they fight with. I agree with your bad guy statement, but when I was training to become a Paramedic and obviously most of the training was done in the ER so we definitely saw damner everything you can imagine especially a lot of gunshot incidents and what I can tell you was that we were able to save and keep more bad guys alive who were shot with 9mm multiple times than those who had been shot 1-2 times with a .45. When the engagement really happens and it is very fluid you are going to point shoot. This is what can incapacitate a target, even with a poorly placed torso shot. When i was in the military in the 60s we still were using hard ball ammo and the same still applied. I prefer the .45 ACP. For me the thing that has always solved this debate is simple. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. Your tax-deductible donation to The Trace will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. Use your heads!! But associates I worked with and against on jobs they all use one main gun to kill with the 9 mm with silencer. Damage: 23. Our only requirement is that you give Ammo.com appropriate credit by linking to the original article. To me the rest dont count. Ive shot both calibers at humans as a soldier and as a LEO and 9mm just doesnt get the same results as 45 in the same number of shots. Got to love 45 in Army Guard 21 years. Possible off hand 200. It makes a bigger hole. Weve known this for, what, eighty years now? With training one would be more calm, but also a persons experience with conflict determines surety. Cyst fluid rich in lipids and inflammatory factors is a characteristic pathological manifestation of ACP and may play a very important role in hypothalamic injury caused by tumors. I have a rock island arms 1911 45, a Walther p22 22cal., A heritage rough rider 22 6 inch barrel. I am aware of the ballistics of both rounds, and am a handloader. But this doesnt mean that a 22 rimfire is the best caliber or even a good choice for head shots. This pits apples to apples and will once and for all lay to rest all this ludicrous debate. Take it from me, a physics major. Ill take an M4, even with the M855 green-tip ammo that everyone says sucks, over an MP40 or a Thompson or any handgun any day of the week.
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